Justin Woodward began out as one of many small cogs within the massive wheel of the sport business. He studied recreation artwork and design in faculty. Then he obtained a job at a triple-A recreation firm as a 3D background artist.
However he determined he would quite be a recreation designer as an alternative of being one amongst many 3D artists. He began his personal graphic design studio, doing duties like emblem design that would join him with entrepreneurs. He realized the right way to fund initiatives and create companies. He went on to create an indie recreation studio. He stayed on that path.
He finally began The MIX, the Media Indie Trade, to assist recreation startups get observed at massive occasions just like the Sport Builders Convention. He picked up numerous experience alongside the way in which and now opinions greater than 700 pitches a yr whereas looking for the very best startups that deserve consideration. In our session at GamesBeat Summit 2025, we did a hearth chat about his experiences. And we delved into the hidden ways in which builders can discover cash, whether or not it’s by way of Kickstarter, platform firms, publishers, VCs and different means.
Right here’s an edited transcript of our interview.
GamesBeat: Our session right this moment is “Sport Funding Diversification for Indies.” I’m glad to be right here with Justin Woodward, who has a protracted historical past within the recreation business. I’ll have him undergo a few of it right here. Are you able to discuss to us about how you bought going within the indie area?
Justin Woodward: I’ve been within the recreation business for about 15 years now. I went to school for recreation artwork and design. Went to triple-A shortly after that as a 3D background artist. After that I actually didn’t–throughout that point I actually didn’t dig being a 3D artist. I needed to be a designer. That’s what I went to highschool for, and a producer. As I began to determine my very own path, I began a graphic design studio the place I used that to do graphic design, web sites and emblem designs, for entrepreneurs, as a way to discover ways to fund initiatives, discover ways to create companies, that sort of factor. After which proper round that point, once I began the graphic design enterprise, I began a grasp’s program in recreation manufacturing administration. I began an impartial recreation studio.
He stayed on that path and obtained to fulfill numerous mentors within the recreation business.
GamesBeat: When did you encounter that first must go and get one thing from any individual?
Woodward: I used to be tremendous broke. I used to be sleeping on the ground throughout my grasp’s program. I used to be wanting into what it takes to get angel funding. This was 2009, round that point. Kickstarter had simply began. We have been one of many first Kickstarters, and we failed, which was very fascinating. However each time there was a chance, we used that pitch to push it additional. All the parents that took me underneath their wing, I used their mentorship to be taught extra.
On the time–I grew up in San Diego. There was Excessive Moon Studios. Rockstar San Diego. PlayStation, Sony San Diego. One in every of my mentors was Clint Keith, who was type of the grandfather of agile scrum. He took me to management workshops, if you happen to keep in mind–they’d this stuff known as management boards. He would take me and I might work with people from EA, Ubisoft, all of those totally different triple-A firms, educating them agile scrum. I might be taught that as I used to be educating, after which he was introducing me to folks. I used to be a giant fan of Oddworld Inhabitants. I obtained to fulfill Lorne Lanning, which was tremendous loopy to me. In particular person. He was such a cool man. I obtained the boldness to really feel like I may do that.
GamesBeat: Who was the one that first gave you a break when it comes to funding cash?
Woodward: We have been pitching the identical recreation. We tried Kickstarter. Then we moved on to Nexon. Nexon was making an attempt to get into indie stuff. Then this factor opened up known as the IGN Indie Open Home, across the finish of 2010 and into 2011. I didn’t have cash to go. I used to be in San Diego with my beat-up previous Nissan Altima, sleeping on the ground. One in every of my mentors, who I met–she was from Venezuela. I used to be enhancing movies for her. She stated, “For those who take this chance to go as much as San Francisco and get in, I’ll mortgage you $2,000 to cowl it.”
We ended up on one of many management discussion board journeys, which was fascinating. I used to be already in San Francisco. I linked with the parents at IGN and stated, “I’m on the town. Can I meet you in particular person and pitch you?” They cherished the thought. They principally gave me every week. “You must decide to return up right here in every week.” I went to Alicia and went to Clint and stated, “What do you assume I ought to do?” Clint stated, “You must take the bull by the balls and make this occur.” Alicia stated she’d give me the $2,000. We packed our stuff and drove as much as the bay. We didn’t know what would occur, something like that. I used to be capable of persuade IGN to let me write weblog items for my faculty for an extra $2,000 a month. That helped me pay for it.
We confirmed the pitch at GDC. We had a bunch of individuals come and take a look at the sport. Then Alicia turned the primary investor. She invested $40,000. Adam Boyes, earlier than he was at PlayStation, was taking me to Capcom and Konami and all these totally different locations to pitch. I began getting the boldness to pitch. The following factor , the following step was I obtained a cope with Grownup Swim Video games. That pushed it excessive. That’s once I actually understood the right way to get my grounding in funding.
GamesBeat: What have been some observations concerning the indie ecosystem that you just encountered over time? San Francisco in some methods turned a Mecca for indies, however dwelling bills obtained so excessive that indies have been priced out of the town. They needed to go additional out into Oakland and different components of the bay. There’s at all times been this bigger sample that’s affected indies and decided whether or not or not they’re viable.
Woodward: It was very fascinating throughout that point. You’d see this if you have been within the enterprise lengthy sufficient, see the cycles of the place issues are going. On the time social gaming was the factor. Everybody was doing Fb video games.
GamesBeat: That was the precise motive GamesBeat and its first convention took off. Corporations like Zynga had come on the scene, and everybody who was competing with them. All these social gaming people have been there. I’d left my job pondering I might by no means cowl video games once more. I went to VentureBeat to cowl startups, and there have been no gaming startups on the time. However rapidly social gaming got here alongside.
Woodward: There was a bizarre transition within the time with the arrival of social gaming, and in addition indie growth. For the IGN Indie Open Home, for instance–GameSpy, which was a publication on the time, additionally did backend multiplayer work. They labored with Iron Galaxy and plenty of others. That was their Indie Open Home accelerator. They have been making an attempt to get info for indies about what’s subsequent. They felt that indies can be the following massive factor, which they have been. Tremendous Meat Boy was blowing up. There have been all these big breakouts within the indie area, alongside know-how like Unity changing into common. Unreal was working for indies. It created this landmark occasion.
San Francisco was positively a Mecca for that. When social gaming noticed numerous layoffs, because the business was shifting towards cell–in the event that they didn’t make that shift, there have been numerous wonderful, gifted builders who needed to start out their very own studios.
GamesBeat: Typically everybody questions whether or not that new pattern goes to take off or not. But when it impressed all these buyers to pour cash into the sport business, it turned out to be a very good factor. Get that cash, take that cash, and do what you could possibly with it. Social gaming was a technique. Cell gaming was a technique. In additional trendy instances we’ve had blockchain gaming. All this stuff save numerous recreation firms from going underneath, even when generally they didn’t need to do a blockchain recreation or one thing like that. It’s fascinating that that pattern has at all times been there.
There’s at all times been this worry, too, that everybody has had across the “indie apocalypse.” Did you are feeling that? Did you ever imagine in that?
Woodward: I at all times thought it was BS. Everybody’s petrified of all these things, however you need to know the right way to–I hustle. You must know the right way to transfer round. As you simply stated, each time there’s a wave, you possibly can journey that wave for funding. Across the time after we have been beginning, it was proper when the PS4 was getting its ft. They wanted content material. It was taking so lengthy for them to make first-party video games. The budgets have been ballooning, and the time it took. They jumped into indie. They began to put money into indie. PlayStation was dropping checks for round $200,000.
Each wave has this. You have been speaking about blockchain, which was fascinating as effectively. That has additionally shifted now. Blockchain fell off, and funding goes again into conventional net 2.0. You simply should know the right way to journey these waves.
GamesBeat: Now we have to reside as much as the billing of our session right here. The place is the cash now? The place is the hidden cash?
Woodward: You must know the place to look. That’s fairly apparent. However I simply talked about blockchain. Numerous people who had blockchain cash, they nonetheless have that cash, however they’re trying to make investments it in several methods. Numerous publishers obtained purchased up by Embracer and Xbox and so forth. A few of these firms obtained let go. Saber Interactive purchased themselves out. They’re now trying to put money into smaller initiatives, as a result of earlier than that implosion, their initiatives have been round $15-30 million. Now they’ve let go of those big initiatives. They’re keen to put money into video games which might be nearer to the $1-2 million vary. Clearly there must be due diligence for this, but when builders could make a recreation for $250,000 to $500,000, that’s additionally a market the place they’re keen to make a guess that’s not so big.
Corporations with IP have been keen to make bets. We simply launched a recreation with Nickelodeon, a Rugrats recreation, in October. That was a smaller indie fashion of title with a giant title. Shortly after they noticed what we did, Paramount began to fund extra impartial initiatives. Numerous this has been popping up. Platforms, totally different funds–
GamesBeat: Meta put some huge cash into VR video games.
Woodward: Precisely.
GamesBeat: How would you fee a few of these other ways of getting cash? You talked about Kickstarter. There are platform firms, publishers, VCs. The place do you go first?
Woodward: It relies on the place you’re at along with your studio and your expertise, and in addition your relationships. Unbiased publishers, that looks like a very good guess, in addition to platforms. When you have a very good marketing strategy and you are feeling such as you’re going to be making a VC 10X-plus, then it is sensible to gravitate your recreation and your pitch towards that–I’m going to say it’s a recreation. Each time you talk with a funder, you need to perceive the vernacular. How do you talk with them? They’re on the lookout for sure issues that others aren’t.
An impartial writer like Uncooked Fury or Devolver, they’re on the lookout for creativity and expertise. They’re on the lookout for your subsequent three video games. Whereas VCs they’re on the lookout for the cash. How is that this going to earn cash? That additionally rides waves, like AI. VCs are on the lookout for AI. Beforehand it was blockchain. Each wave, they’re going to be on the lookout for sure issues to put money into, as a result of they’re investing in a number of studios. That’s one other factor to think about. Are you making an attempt to fund your studio in the long run, or are you making an attempt to fund one undertaking? That’s additionally going to find out the place a developer needs to go.
GamesBeat: In what capability are you on the lookout for video games? What do you search for among the many indies?
Woodward: I sort of skipped previous this, however I run The MIX, the Media Indie Trade. As I began my studio in San Francisco, I spotted that there was a necessity for builders to get involved with publishers, buyers, and press. In 2012 I teamed up with some people and we ran this occasion out of the IGN workplaces. We had an incredible group of individuals. We had Towerfall and Retro Metropolis Rampage, some massive indies that confirmed up. It was packed. The following yr I known as it The MIX. It was even greater. It was tremendous grassroots. There was a line wrapped across the IGN constructing till we couldn’t even slot in there. We needed to get different services. We began doing E3 and that sort of factor.
Now we do 4 or 5 reveals a yr. Now we have one arising in the course of the Summer season Sport Fest. Now we have a web-based occasion and an in-person occasion. Now that that is my enterprise, we’ve got an obligation to our companions – one, the builders, two, the press, after which three, our sponsors – to have extraordinarily good content material. Any time we’ve got an occasion, I look by way of, with my staff, round 700 video games. Throughout a yr I’ll most likely look by way of 1,500 video games or extra. It’s fascinating to see the totally different tendencies occurring. After I’m speaking to builders, I’m saying, “You must do one thing extraordinarily totally different.” For those who’re making an attempt to do one other roguelike Metroidvania, you’re misplaced within the shuffle regardless of how good it appears.
GamesBeat: What sort of video games are getting traction?
Woodward: Extra emergent gameplay, the place it doesn’t take as lengthy to develop the sport, however each time you play it’s totally different. That’s the roguelike style, in a manner, however what’s your twist on it? How are you constructing your group? That sort of factor.
GamesBeat: Occupied with various sources, are there any we haven’t talked about but? Or is the cash actually not there proper now? I see some publishers coming again. Acclaim simply arrange store once more underneath Alex Joseph. A number of years in the past there have been one thing like 30 publishers that had gone out of enterprise. When a writer goes down they take so many builders down with them.
Woodward: I additionally helped to run the Humble Black Sport Developer Fund for 4 years, the place we funded builders’ prototypes. Humble Video games–Ziff-Davis didn’t need to deal in that sort of enterprise anymore, so Humble Video games shut down. What occurs to all of the expertise there? Now there’s a holding firm taking good care of them. It’s very fascinating. The factor about it that’s cool, although–none of that’s cool so far as firms tanking, however as an illustration, Versus Evil was purchased by TinyBuild. They purchased numerous firms proper earlier than the crash. These gifted individuals who ran these studios are nonetheless on the market. Now non-public buyers need to put money into these folks. They’ve cash. However they’re privately on the lookout for funds. You must construct your community and perceive the place these people are at, what they’re on the lookout for, and what ‘s on the market.
GamesBeat: We’ve had actual successes. Some triple-A video games have failed, however they depart a gap available in the market. Indies have moved in to take their place within the final couple of years. Helldivers 2, Palworld, Balatro. We’ve seen a lot of video games with a single developer behind them, like Animal Properly. What do you assume is occurring as you have a look at the patterns there?
Woodward: I positively assume there’s a gap available in the market, particularly within the center, the double-An area. Instruments are permitting builders to make double-A experiences, giant experiences on decrease budgets. Additionally, for the reason that world is opening up so far as communication–it’s at all times been there, however now you can work with builders in Brazil, in Indonesia, within the Philippines, that sort of factor. You possibly can have a simpatico relationship the place it’s not simply transactional. That’s opened up the potential for making video games very lean and really shortly. Numerous impartial builders fail once they’re making an attempt to compete with market costs and that sort of factor, quite than negotiating how they’re doing enterprise with distributors and the parents they work with. Actually holding it lean to flip that for a win. The delayed gratification of being an entrepreneur is actual. You don’t need to increase $2 million and pay your self $350,000. I’ve seen that sort of factor occur.
GamesBeat: I simply got here again from Gamescom Latam in Brazil. There have been 130,000 folks on the present. I met with a lot of startups there. Newzoo places them at about $7.7 billion in income out of the $180 billion or so for the entire recreation business. It’s a smaller a part of the market, but it surely’s rising at 6% a yr. The U.S. is rising at solely .5% per yr or so. Trying on the Convoy knowledge for the primary quarter, there have been zero offers between VCs and anybody in South America. Likewise there was nothing in Australia and nothing in Africa. All the cash went into Asia, Europe, and the USA.
I see a disconnect right here. This is among the fastest-growing areas on the planet for video games. It has a vibrant indie market. But no person is placing cash into it. The cash financing no matter is occurring in Latin America is all homegrown. That appears loopy.
Woodward: If anybody is investing, they need to put money into these studios. We’re working with a studio proper now, certainly one of our companions, and so they’re doing wonderful work in full manufacturing. At The MIX we work with builders all around the world – Europe, Latin America, Southeast Asia. We see so many nice video games now. The Latin American Sport Showcase, David Lucio is operating that. There are such nice video games arising there that at the moment are at The MIX or in Day of the Devs or any of those showcases, as a result of they’re high notch. That’s the place issues are going to go. If buyers are good, they’re going to start out wanting there. I do know there are numerous taxes and laws and hoops you need to soar by way of. It prices a bit extra if you happen to’re working with people in, say, Brazil.
GamesBeat: If there are methods for underrepresented communities and recreation builders from these communities to get funding–is there recommendation you’d have on that entrance?
Woodward: From The MIX, I additionally began a nonprofit known as Expertise Studios, which has a fund, the XP Fund. We ran an accelerator with Netflix Video games to assist black builders. The nonprofit can be doing enterprise as Black Voices in Gaming. Now we have a group that works with tons {of professional} builders. Numerous it’s simply entry. Entry to networks. Understanding the place the funds are. Being ready to do these pitches. However the expertise is identical. Discovering the cash is identical. There could also be extra funding choices, like by way of our program. Numerous this has dried up as a result of political local weather.
Xbox has accomplished quite a bit within the area. We work with them for his or her DAP program, the Developer Acceleration Program. They’ve been doing issues behind the scenes for years that individuals didn’t find out about. These are the parents you need to discuss to. Likewise PlayStation has had one thing behind the scenes. They’re not blasting it out to the world, however they’re funding initiatives from underrepresented devs.
